On Forgetfulness and Rudeness

[katiefoolery]

Bah bah bah!  Why did I spent all my valuable working hours writing blurbs and descriptions for my stories if I was going to forget to email them home so I could start uploading them to my website?  I really don't know the answer to that one.  It's just stupid.  And annoying.  More to the point, this means I can't make any progress on the site until Monday afternoon.

Bah.

Ah well, I suppose it means I can do some more fiddling around with making my own template on WordPress.  And I do have my bio and writing CV here, so I suppose I could upload those.

It's just frustrating.

While we're on things that are annoying me, I want to rant about the stupid kid and his dad at the supermarket the other day.  I was behind the dad in the queue and he'd just finished paying for his groceries when his son joined the line with a bottle of drink that he wanted to buy.  I thought I'd be nice, so I stood aside and said to the kid: "You go next."

Well.  He just gave me a weird, ungrateful look and went right ahead.  I was bewildered.  There wasn't even an attempt at a muttered "thanks".  Even worse was his dad, who said absolutely nothing to his ungrateful wretch of a boy.  He just stood there, unconcerned, while his son was rude and sullen to someone who'd just done something nice to him.  I couldn't believe it.  No wonder half the kids I deal with in the library are nasty little brats if this is how their parents are bringing them up.

I still can't get over that dad.  If it had been my dad... well, for starters, I would have said thank-you without being prompted.  And if I hadn't, my dad would have made sure I did.  Loudly.  And gratefully.  I thought we were supposed to ask what's wrong with the youth of today.  Now it appears we have to ask: "What's wrong with the parents of youth today?"

Is this all part of the "me!" culture that we seem to be developing?  You don't thank people who do nice things for you because of course they're going to do it.  It's for me after all, isn't it?  Everyone should do stuff for me, because I'm great.  Of course I should go ahead of you in the queue, because I'm me.  Of course I should shove my way to the front of the bus line, ahead of the people who already have tickets ready to go, to hold everyone up while I buy mine... because I'm me.  Of course I should expect you to get out of my way, because I'm me.

My parents brought me up to consider other people and not to be selfish.  But I have to tell you, I'm sorely tempted to ignore all of this when people behave so rudely to complete strangers.

Comments

[the-kaytinator.livejournal.com]

I have this conversation with Sophie so often, I guess because we both work with kids. We're like two old ladies talking about our health problems and "young people today".

Anyway, the problem is that parents have an expectation these days that teachers will handle a child's entire education. There is a misconception that the teacher is responsible for teaching a child about more than just maths, english and such. That somehow schools are responsible for a child's social skills as well. Parents expect schools to discipline kids and instruct them in social norms.

Teachers, in today's modern everyone-sues-everyone, children-don't-deserve-to-be-beaten-with-a-massive-stick world, are not ALLOWED to discipline children, or instruct them in social skills that are outside the educational curriculum.

So they're not learning it at home, they're not learning it at school, and we, the innocent childless who would certainly be better parents than most parents, suffer the consequences of this.

Back in my day, kids behaved better. And I'm not kidding. I work with kids from about 8 to 16, and I can still remember being in that age group. Seriously, when I was the age of the kids I teach now, even the "bad kids" were not as bad as some kids today. I'm not saying they never misbehaved. I'm saying that the majority of kids listened, and could be controlled by their teachers. They would, for the most part, obey an instruction when given by an authority figure (especially in primary school, there was a bit more rebelliousness in the teen years). The reason for this, I believe, is because both parents and teachers instilled some sense of good social behaviour into young children.

They just don't do that anymore.

[naelany.livejournal.com]

if teachers were responsible for all of that, they'd be called parents *grumbles*. It bugs me to no end that that's how things are now

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

It's so frustrating. I overhead a teacher at my old job saying she felt worried about giving a hug to an upset student, because you never know when a parent's going to sue them for "touching" their child, just for a comforting hug. It's very sad.

[naelany.livejournal.com]

*nodnods* indeed it is. Seems like things have been over-complicated these days.

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

I walked back across the road, muttering about "Kids these days..." althought it's not really their fault, as was demonstrated quite amply.

Kids did behave better. When I went to secondary school, anyone who answered back was the rebel and was more than likely getting a detention. Now, I hear kids answering back and making smart-mouthed comments to their teachers... and they're the tame ones. If they're told to stop doing, they demand to know why and keep doing whatever it is until they're all but forced to desist. Even the "bad" kids I went to school with would have been disgusted by this behaviour.

What about the boy who barged into my workroom the other day (it's usually off-limits to students) and, when I asked him what he wanted, looked at me in surprised and muttered: "Melway," as though I was an idiot.

"Can you phrase it as a request?" I asked. Which he did. Reluctantly.

Kids learn from their parents. You can't deny it. I learnt from my parents. It's just shocking to see what sort lessons they're learning.

[the-kaytinator.livejournal.com]

Parents work more nowadays, and they spend less time with their kids. One way of compensating (the WRONG way), is to buy the kids things and give them whatever they want. Buying the love, effectively.

But of course, as we all know, because we are people of common sense, such parenting teaches your kid that there are no boundaries to what they can have.

And it doesn't work, because such children do not often respect or appreciate their parents, because they've always been given everything.

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

That's exactly it! Very few families can survive if both parents don't work and how can you discipline your child if you feel guilty for leaving them alone (out of necessity, admittedly) for eight or nine hours a day? My ideal world would be one where families could get by on one income and one of the parents could decide whether to stay at home or not. What point is there in having a society if there's no actual society to speak of? Money does not equal love and family.

I wish it were possible for one person to change the world. :(

[naelany.livejournal.com]

Ya know...I'm not that old, really I'm not. I'm only 30, I can remember relatively well how kids behaved in their teens as well. And well, I will admit that the whole "me" attitude was highly prevelant (hey, it's Holland!), I don't think it was quite as bad then, as it is now. And we wonder why the world's going to hell in a handbasket.
Anyway, props to you for going out of your way to do something nice for someone else, even if they turned out to be ingrates

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

Everything seems to be about having what you want right now. My parents taught me to save up and to feel the satisfaction of buying something I wanted after working hard to get it. Now you see students with mobiles and jewellery, getting their nails done professionally (although usually not the boys). They're just given whatever they want and many of them don't value it.

I do try to consider other people. It just annoys me to see that so few other people actually do the same.

[naelany.livejournal.com]

I think it's what they have termed the ...oh bullocks, my brain would choose now to fry on me...I can't think of the name now... "entitlement". I think....

And I know what you mean...it's kind of sad, really

[flippyfrog.livejournal.com]

rude bastard. My mother would have whacked me over the head if i hadn't said my please and thank yous. Actually, no, she wouldn't have resorted to violence... my mother doesn't need to do that... love her but she can be a scary lady.

You're right, though, it's parents. I see it with the parents of my girls. And it's amazing the difference. In the ones who are hard workers, but don't have a lot of money, the kids have the best manners. The ones who have too much money, the kids have a hard time connecting with other kids, and tend to buy them off (expensive birthday presents and the like) in order to have friends. The parents who are dole bludgers, had the kids simply for the baby bonus, they tend to have sweet kids who are clingy and desperate to be loved.

But yeah, the kids whose parents really have to work to keep afloat, so they have two jobs and they cram all their kids into a caravan, are as rough as guts, but their kids tend to have the better manners. The parents make sure that their children know what respect is. That is a generalisation, of course. But that is what i've found. Of course i've had the couple of richer families with children that are just delightful, but you'll find it's a different kind of family. They have money but they didn't either always have it, or they've got the money because they're fairly smart and have that genius strangeness about them.... if you get me. :S I don't even know if i get myself...

[rigel-7.livejournal.com]

My mother or father would just have had to give me a 'look' and I would have said thank you quick smart.

Speaking of rudeness, my mother was lamenting this the other day. She was at the shops and heard her name called out. It was one of the daughters of a frioend of hers. She just found it very odd that this child would address her by her first name - particularly as she had never been invited to do so.

I don't know about you, but I would never do that. I still have trouble adressing the friends of my parentals by their first names, even when they remind me every time to 'call them Bob/Sheila'

[rilla06.livejournal.com]

That's different with my family. I've always called my mum and dad's friends by their first names. I've never thought to call them by their last. :/

I hate it when people don't say please and thank you, and I'm still a kid :P Then again, my mother is a teacher...

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

I just couldn't do it - it took me ages to even start thinking of my parents' friends by their first names.

Full marks to your mum for teaching you your manners, good Rilla. In the future, you'll probably find that people are so stunned when you're polite to them that they'll go out of their way to help you. We well-mannered few shall rule the world! Well, maybe not. But we can dream.

[rilla06.livejournal.com]

Another reason for my not calling my mum's friends by their last names could be the fact that at primary school, we called the teachers by their first names. :)

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

Goodness me, yes. I wouldn't have gotten away with being so rude. And there probably would have been a lecture in the car afterwards, too.

I still find it weird to address my parents' friends by their first names. And I know how you feel when kids address you by your first name. I think: "Well, who said you could do that? Where's your respect?" One of the students at my old work asked if they could call me by my first name and I told them in no uncertain terms that they could not. Where's the point in being grown up if younger people don't give you any respect? That's why I think schools that encourage students to address teachers by their first names are quite misguided. How are students going to respect somebody who's trying to be on the same level as them?

[bethamphetam1ne.livejournal.com]

I still call my best friend of nearly 20 years' parents Mrs and Mr out of sheer habit! Not to mention any old teachers or friends of the family I run into.

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

I can't even think of my old teachers by their first names. There was a job going at my old secondary school a while back and I could just imagine myself if I'd got it. I'd be calling all my old teachers "Mr" and "Mrs" whatever, just out of habit.

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

I also find vast differences in ethnic backgrounds, too. At Doncaster, we had an international school, where students from China came to study VCE and learn intensive English. They were so polite! Without exception, they were considerate and respectful. One girl even begged me to sit down in her chair when I was helping her. It was such a shock, after dealing with the average Aussie student all day.

At my current work, we have a lot of students from African nations and I find some of them to be quite rude. They'll push in front of you or ignore you and refuse to move out of your way if you're approaching. And for the most part, they very rarely say "thank-you" if you do something for them. Yet they're not actually nasty or rude kids. It must be something to do with their culture. Maybe there's a gesture they use for 'thank-you' rather than a word and my Anglo-Celtic background doesn't recognise it.

There are some gorgeous kids at my work though, such as the girl who asked me how I was and how my holiday had been on her first day back. When I asked how hers was in return, she replied: "Too short," with sort of world-weary fatalism. Some kids just get on well with people, whereas others are stuck in this "all-for-me" rut of selfishness.

[tim-of-oz.livejournal.com]

PRIVATE SCHOOL KIDS = RUDERUDERUDE.

Well, some. My school is half made up of those who won't get a job until they're about 30, because mum and dad will support them up until that, and pay their way through life, and they get whatever they want. The sort of ones that come to school on Mondays and rant about the fact their parents wouldn't give them $50 worth of alcohol for last Saturday night. I mean, it's soooo unfair, they should have the right to do whatever they want!

But really. I'm betting it's quite possibly like that...like, I KNOW I can be rude and I interrupt a bit, but I try and make an effort to stop it.

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

It's the effort that counts, good Timm. You can't be perfect all the time (I'm certainly not) - just when it counts.

I went to a catholic school, so we had a whole range of students from not-very-well-off to ridiculously wealthy. There was one girl in year seven who told us how she had two enormous bedrooms but she hated them both and slept in her private lounge room instead. Poor dear.

[tim-of-oz.livejournal.com]

Yes, life can be so very tough! :(

[bethamphetam1ne.livejournal.com]

You're so preaching to the choir here. I've been moaning about "today's youth" even while I was one of them.

I guess that's what happens when your parents raise you to shut car doors quietly by bumping them closed when you arrive home late at night so as not to disturb the neighbours, and to politely reply "good thanks" when someone asks how you are, even when you're on death's door!

I even feel bad about the loud music when I'm at other people's parties.

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

I'm so delighted to hear that plenty of other people out there value manners and consideration! If only we could convert some of the masses to our point of view. :)

[the-kaytinator.livejournal.com]

What annoys me, is that I can't talk about manners and politeness and common courtesy without being called a conservative...

I mean... what the hell?

I can't implement my socialist regime of absolute equality where everyone says "please" and "thankyou"?

Politeness costs you nothing, and hurts no one...

[snowy-gem.livejournal.com]

Ive just read thru what every one has said.... and i have to agree... my parents would of berated me for not saying thank you too Bunne!


Ive lemented since yr 12 really.. ( 2000). ive been babysitting the same child since he was 3, in 1997, and well.. he got a mobile phone when he was in yr 3 as he went to St Andrews in sydney cbd and his mother is paranoid and neurotic and the daughter of a rather influential family and is terrified he would get snatched. I love Jo, but she neurotic.

He has ever toy he could possibly want, however she treats him like a adult, if he wants something and she doesnt want to buy it for him he has to " work" ( do chores or help her with work stuff) to earn money for it... One time the entrepenaurial child held a lemonade stall outside our house ( we live 15 mins to the city) which i had never ever seen anyone ever do in the last 10years near the city..... and he made money! people driving and walking past bought drinks!!!

But most kids i have seen are so rude! People and kids alike expect so much of so many people. They expect the bus driver to stop even when its not a bus stop cos they forgot to press the button or cos they cant be bothered walking to the bus stop. Are bus drivers not human beings?? theres a bus stop for a reason , u stupid people...

They expect sales people to do everything for them, and kick up a stink when what they want isnt there, as though they arnt allowed to run out, or they yell at people who are trying their hardest becuase they expect so much from a sales person, or if they cant find something its the sales persons fault ( even if the person has nothingto do with that department, its still their fault), or they expect you to know exactly where the specific item they want is. ffs no one is a mind reader!!!!


They drive their car and act like they own the road, as they are obviously more important that everyone else in the entire universe, that if they cut u off you deserved it cos you were in their way ( regardless of who is actually in the wrong), man some people even run red lights over and over again. ive seen it!! i mean ffs there was over 100m for you to stop in, you stupid idiot, red lights are for saftey, not there for you inconviniece to just frigging ignore!!!

Ohhh and with teachers!!!!
Depending on the type of teacher,they expect teachers to, as well as teach their subject:

- provide help for every other subject the kid does

- disicpline their child

- not touch their child

- not have an issue if a child kicks/hits/abuses/ throws stuff/etc( and this contradicts discipling them!)

- treat their child as special

- make sure their kid gets high marks ( to the extent they do their assignment, ask for extrastuff for their kid for stupid reasons etc) and its the teachers not the childs fault if the kid fails - makes them a crap teacher apparently!

- not confiscate items that distract from learning ( ipods, mobile phones, etc) ig the child is disrupting the learning of others, thats unfairthat their child has to miss out on their stuff!
And so manyother stupidthings that just didnt happen when i was at school

- just let their kid not do the work if they dont want to

- if they dont want their child to learn something, their child should be given special treatment ( obviously certain things are acceptable,but jsut cos u dont want to, is not a good enough reason)

- not give their child detention cos " they are a good kid" - umm hate to tell you they fucked up mate, otherwise they wouldnt be in detention!!!!

They treat Behaviour team teachers as though they dont know what they are talking bout ( my mother runs the south west sydney granville team and she has a masters in special education in behaviour as well as a BA Dip Ed and did the eq on 4U Maths, 4U English, and 4U History when she was at school). They act as though they know what the best thing to do at the school is, they wonder why their child doesnt have friends or associates with certain children, why they have certain homework if the kid doesnt like it, they expect everything to be catered to thei kid... theres another 15-29 other children in the damn class!!!!!

Arragghh!!!

/endrant

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

I can see you feel just as strongly about this issue as I do, good DM. I've certainly seen examples of the things you've illustrated at both of the schools at which I've worked. Often, the parents were just as bad as their kids and some teachers were loathe to discipline a child because they knew they'd have to deal with their parents later. I think people expect too much of teachers - they just people trying to do a good job of educating young people. The rubbish they have to deal with from some students is just intolerable. I often contemplated becoming a teacher, but having worked in a school library and seen the environment in which teachers find themselves, I've changed my mind completely. Maybe the two or three decent kids make it worthwhile, but the attitude of the others is just depressing.