katiefoolery: (Girl writing in cap)
[personal profile] katiefoolery
If you're a writer, then you love words.  You love putting them together correctly.  You love spelling.  You love grammar.

You couldn't imagine writing anything anywhere that wasn't correctly-phrased, well-spelt and grammatically accurate.

In my, possibly rather harsh, opinion: if you don't care enough about words to use them properly in every situation, then you're not a writer.

Yesterday, I was browsing through the wonderful collection of blogs at Authors' Blogs, when I came across the blog of an aspiring writer.  I read the most recent post on her journal and all was going reasonably well, until I reached the last paragraph.  In this paragraph, she claimed that, as a result of the event described in the post, she wasn't going to start using correct "grammer" and spelling.  No way.  That's for losers.  Apparently.

I then went and read the blurb of her blog, wherein she claimed to be a writer... but I wasn't to expect proper spelling and grammar (at least she spelt it correctly this time) on her blog.  No, this blog is a place where the pressure's off, where she can relax and forget about treating words with respect.

I was incredulous.  How can you claim to be a writer in one breath and in the next, claim to find it "relaxing" not to have to bother with spelling?  No real writer would ever feel like that.

As I was sitting there with my lower jaw somewhere in the region of the floor, I began thinking about the realities of the situation.  Every day, we learn that it's harder and harder to be published.  The vast majority of publishing houses no longer read unsolicited manuscripts.  They've fired their readers and the onus on reading these manuscripts has fallen to agents.  Unsurprisingly, many agents are now refusing to read unsolicited manuscripts, claiming that this job should be undertaken by publishers, as it was in the past.

With all of these obstacles in your way, why would you jeopardise your chances of publication by espousing such an attitude of indifference to the tools of your trade?  The reality is that you can write an amazing, breath-taking book but it's no damn good if it's rife with errors of grammar and spelling.  No publishing house is going to take the time to fix that, not when they have another story on hand that's well-written and simply in need of a little editorial direction.

Further to this, how would your potential publisher feel if they visited your blog in order to investigate you, only to find that you disdain to use correct spelling and "grammer" there?  What sort of attitude does that reveal to your visitors?  How much respect would that really generate for you and your dream to be published?

Words are a writer's tools and they should be treated with respect.  Tradesmen look after their tools and make sure they're in working condition.  They know that if the tools aren't clean and the wires aren't intact, then they won't work properly and they won't be able to do a decent job.  Just because you can't polish words with an oily cloth is no reason not to make sure they're in proper working order.

If you truly are a writer, then you'll love words and the idea of not using them correctly will fill you with revulsion.

on 2006-02-27 12:41 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] the-kaytinator.livejournal.com
*loud and enthusiastic applause*

I can forgive mistakes. I can forgive bad grammar and spelling. What I CANNOT forgive is not CARING! Not bothering to make any kind of effort at all. And to actively disdain correct English? What the hell?

on 2006-02-27 06:07 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] katiefoolery.livejournal.com
Yes, I didn't understand that at all. It makes as much sense as a plumber deciding to do his (or her) job with a spatula, or something. I've been thinking about this whole issue a great deal today and I just can't get my head around the idea of not caring about words. My whole being rebels against the very idea.

on 2006-02-27 12:45 am (UTC)
lexicalcrow: (Default)
Posted by [personal profile] lexicalcrow
If you truly are a writer, then you'll love words and the idea of not using them correctly will fill you with revulsion.

*applauds* That's exactly how I feel.

on 2006-02-27 06:11 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] katiefoolery.livejournal.com
I'm quite relieved that other people feel this. I spent a lot of last night wondering if it was just me; if there was something weird about me. Huzzah for finding like souls!

on 2006-02-27 01:40 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] wildebeth.livejournal.com
I respectfully disagree.

Though I feel the way you describe about words, I would never look at someone with disdain who is willing to not worry about grammar or spelling in their own journal. For one thing, correct grammar and spelling is a struggle, particularly those with learning disabilities of some sort. I've found that my own spelling has taken a sharp downturn since the advent of automatic spell correction on Microsoft Word.

The freedom to make mistakes without fear of repercussions (which I had to look up the spelling for) is freeing. Hopefully, if someone would be submitting something, they would either clean it up themelves or have someone else help them with it.

I believe writers should love language, but I would never begrudge someone the right to loosen up a little in their personal space. Just like photographers have a right to take a stupid shot, visual artists have the right to play in fingerpaints or play-doh, and chefs have a right to eat a bologna sandwich and potato chips for lunch. If I had to be "on" all the time, I think I would lose part of the love I have for writing.

on 2006-02-27 06:18 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] katiefoolery.livejournal.com
I'm glad you do disagree, because I really did want to hear the other point of view as well.

Firstly, I want to assure you that I don't sneer at people who don't have perfect spelling or grammar, especially if they have learning difficulties. I quite understand that not everybody is as obsessed with words as I am. I wouldn't want you think I was a complete cow and/or snob. It's only when I come across someone who calls themselves a writer and who claims not to care about the tools of their trade that I stare in disbelief.

I also see your point about playing with words, because I do this myself. There are at least two sentences in my post that aren't actually sentences, because I like experimenting with how I structure phrases. You have to play with words in order to see what works for you. But even though I'm playing, I couldn't imagine not paying attention to my spelling.

The main thing that concerned me was the idea of a potential publisher coming across one's declarations of indifference to language and what sort of image that would paint. I would actively encourage writers to play with words and stretch grammar to its breaking point, but I'd also advise them to at least take the effort to spell those words correctly and, more importantly, not to spell grammar with an E.

Thank-you muchly for sharing your thoughts on the topic. I appreciated it very much indeed.

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on 2006-02-27 02:12 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] flippyfrog.livejournal.com
i get a bit worried when we start thinking the same thing at roughly the same time... yesterday i was talking to someone who claimed to be a writer. I love talking to other writers about words, about the joy in pulling ordinary words together to make something beautiful. Well, she didn't have words she loved. She didn't really have any care with the words she used. I fully agree, i'm more 'loose' with the way i speak, but i do inject my vocab with lots of words i love, all the writers i know do this. The girl had no care for language. she had no interest in words that i could get out of her. How can you be a writer and have no love for language? I always saw it as the whole reason to become one.

But it got me thinking, and it brought to mind what my journalism lec told me at the first lecture. She told us that everyone thinks writing is easy. Because from a young age, hopefully, we are all taught how to write. Words aren't seen as anything special by people who are not writers because everyone uses them. It's not like carpentry or glass work. It isn't a special exclusive skill. Anybody can put pen to paper. But this is exactly what makes writing one of the hardest occupations to hold. Everybody thinks everybody can be a writer, but it takes a lot to actually become one, and even more to make people take notice enough to publish you.

So maybe these people think they're writers because they see it as glamorous in some respects, and they think it's something they can do because they have an idea and they know how to put words down on paper or on a screen. But the problem is, she's probably a fantasy writer, and because fantasy is a genre that is overworked, the only thing that makes you stand out from everyone else is the words, the idea doesn't make anyone publish on alone again. I doubt anyone could get away with what Azimov did again.


So yeah, it's like the people to make those pretentious rules about writing, they're never going to make good writers because one restricts themselves too much, and the other doesn't pay enough respect to the craft. I bet you she gives up eventually, only writes poorly structured fanfic

...and i probably just insulted the next JKR

on 2006-02-27 04:32 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] bunhusband.livejournal.com
My wife IS the next JKR, once she stops playing around and writes the darn books:):)

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on 2006-02-27 06:28 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] katiefoolery.livejournal.com
I'm quite willing to admit that there are thousands of types of writers and that they're all vastly different. But, like you, I'd like to believe that they all care about words and language and that this love or words is what drives them to write and to create worlds with bunches of letters printed on a page.

You raise a good point on the issue of fantasy - you need a strong voice to stand out there and in order to have a strong voice, you need an equally strong grasp of language.

I simply can't understand why you'd want to be a writer if you didn't care about words in the first place.

on 2006-02-27 02:17 am (UTC)
ext_1836: (Default)
Posted by [identity profile] rigel-7.livejournal.com
Lizabethy makes a good point.
When I make my art I do often have a period where I play around with my materials and make fun little bits and pieces that I would never dream of showing off. But I'm not being slack, I'm experimenting. I have to investigate what the materials will do if I say - pour turpentine on the ink bed, will it kill the paper? (Incidentally although the paper archivally is shot - it would last maybe 50 years though - you do get loverly cloudlike effects with the ink)
I can't honestly say that I indulge myself in slackness, everything I do is connected to learning more or investigating more.
Writing I dabble in, I love it and I definitely know my grammar and spelling rules. My LJ? Gods! Have you read it recently :P I know its full of fragmented sentences and terrible terrible language, but I guess unlike this girl, I'm not trying to get myself published. It's a journal and thus full of my private thoughts, which are all over the place. :D

on 2006-02-27 06:25 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] katiefoolery.livejournal.com
I do agree (as I also said to Lizabethy) with the idea of playing with language. I couldn't encourage it more. There are at least two sentences in my post that are not actual sentences and they're in there because I love playing with structure and phrasing. Play is vital. Yet, even though I enjoy playing with words, I couldn't countenance spelling them incorrectly or boasting that I don't care if they're spelt incorrectly. It makes my blood run cold to even think of it.

I think you make a good point in that you say you don't show anyone the early stages of your work. Neither do I, for the same reasons as you, good Rig. It's not ready; I'm just playing with it; there's much more work to be done on it. Experimentation is vital. I wouldn't want a potential publisher to see that experimentation until it's ready, though. And I certainly wouldn't imply to that publisher that I only care about language when it's necessary.

My LJ? Gods! Have you read it recently :P I know its full of fragmented sentences and terrible terrible language, but I guess unlike this girl, I'm not trying to get myself published. It's a journal and thus full of my private thoughts, which are all over the place.

Hehe! It's not that bad, Rig. You make a good point here, though. You haven't set up a blurb on your journal where you claim to be actively seeking publication and not giving a damn about your own language all in the space of three lines.

on 2006-02-27 02:24 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] purpletigress.livejournal.com
Here here!

on 2006-02-27 06:29 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] katiefoolery.livejournal.com
It's good to know I'm not alone in this. :)

on 2006-02-27 12:59 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] sarsalot.livejournal.com
It's actually "hear, hear" (which is rather amusing given the subject of Bun's post). :D

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on 2006-02-27 07:12 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] goddesscarlie.livejournal.com
I love words, I think they are powerful things... I just can't spell the damn things!! Which has always been a little ironic for me. But when I'm typing out a story in word, I make a concious effort to learn from my mistakes when the dreaded little red squiggly line shows up. I remember what my history teacher said to me in grade 12 that made me feel really good (I'd had her throughout high school), she said, 'I always thought you didn't care about spelling, but I can see that you really did make an effort.' Something along those lines. I do care!!

But, I do have to admit, when it comes to my live journal (which is private always lock-protected, and will always be seperate from my professional life), I don't care as much. If I make a typo or spelling error, I will rarely correct it. It just doesn't bother me so much, I'm not anal like that. On the other hand, with my website I'll make more of an effort.

:D Nice post :D

on 2006-02-27 10:01 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] katiefoolery.livejournal.com
Glad you enjoyed it.

I think I'm lucky in that, although I didn't learn much grammar at school, I certainly did learn how to spell. For some reason, teachers were keen on that. I have no idea why grammar was left out of the equation...

on 2006-02-27 09:35 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] talmina.livejournal.com
While I am pretty strict on my spelling and only have incorrectly spelt words when it is a genuine mistake (or I'm picking on Miska :P) I do get a little slack on the grammar (mostly capitalisation of words) when I'm online, though usually when I'm in a hurry. However when it relates to my writing (like on the forums for TAFE) I do take the extra time to make sure it is correct.

LJ, Ober and MSN are my private life and I should be able to relax these things in there. It would be like saying that a business person should wear their suit all the time...

I do love the language, I just feel that I need to relax it at times (especially to keep up with LorF summits...)

on 2006-02-27 09:59 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] katiefoolery.livejournal.com
Don't get me wrong, I do think it's fine to relax to a certain degree. After all, you can probably rest assured that publishers won't be following you to Ober.net to check on your typing there. But I see my blog as my writerly presence on the web and I just couldn't imagine telling everyone straight out that I kick spelling and "grammer" out of the door in this blog, because I don't think they're relevant to being a writer (which was essentially what this girl was saying, and not in a roundabout way, either).

Goodness, there's no way to get everything absolutely correct in a LorF summit. It's so rapid-fire!

on 2006-02-27 10:17 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] bethamphetam1ne.livejournal.com
I've only known you for a short time but I love you already.

If this post was a black Southern Baptist-style church, I would be the one shouting "Amen!" and "Hallelujah!" and "Testify!" at random intervals. I may even start speaking in tongues!

on 2006-02-27 10:57 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] katiefoolery.livejournal.com
Plendiferous! I have a bizarre affection for the idea of people shouting "testify!" I can't explain it - something about the word appeals to me, I think.

I'm delighted to hear the other side of my point of view, but it's just as heartening to discover that many people agree with me, too. Huzzah for fellow lovers of treating words as they deserve!

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on 2006-02-27 11:52 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] frohike.livejournal.com
My journal has poor grammar because my journal is my thoughts in text form. My thoughts are structured in the same fashion as my speech. My speech is frequently slang, so therefore my journal is constantly populated by poor grammar. I do try hard to spell correctly, though.

I see why you are disgusted by this. Its like all the people with an LJ interest of "writting". It just boggles my mind. How can you claim an interest when you don't care? But I think everyone else has moved away from that and are saying that you can't be perfect all the time. This is true, I would be very concerned if one was using perfect grammar and spelling all the time. I find that when you have a passion for words, you also have a passion for doing it right. When I'm writing something, I'll try as many rephrasings of a sentence as possible to try and get it right, because some sntences really are that tricky. But in my journal, such a sentence would come out wrong, and would be rephrased again incorrectly, because I'll have thought of ten different ways to say something, and none work, so I pick two or three good ones and hope for the best.
I love the way language has evolved. I find I accidentally make up words, but I make them up logically eg "chronolise" as in to arrange something chronologically. A less impressive one was "danky" as in 'the house is dank'/'the danky house'. Another word which I like simply for the evolution factor is "satched" as in "it started to rain and I got saturated/satched".

The point being that a person who claims to be a writer and then says that they aren't going to bother is... strange. However a person (such as myself) who also claims to be a writer and then does not write in a grammatically correct way because quite simply it is my style. My stories are... casual. I don't use a lot of big words in my writing because often they are superfluous (sp?). Why say "repartee" when "conversation" will save your audience reaching for the dictionary, or worse putting down your book because they feel overwhelmed?

In conclusion, anyone who says they are a writer should not feel the need to perform at all times, however that doesn't mean they can sh*t on English however they please.

on 2006-02-27 12:09 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] bethamphetam1ne.livejournal.com
I don't use a lot of big words in my writing because often they are superfluous (sp?). Why say "repartee" when "conversation" will save your audience reaching for the dictionary, or worse putting down your book because they feel overwhelmed?

Agreed. Magniloquent writing is extremely irritating!

I love making up words too. My biggest success so far has been "skogan" (skanky bogan). Try it, you'll love it.

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on 2006-02-27 01:13 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] sarsalot.livejournal.com
I agree with you, but then again, I don't. Thing is, for me telling a good story trumps writing in the sense of 'putting words together'. Without a driving idea or purpose, words are just words - sounds and shapes. For me, writing is a medium for conveying something else that could also be conveyed as a painting or a dance or a song, and the concept is more important than the medium. To a certain extent, I'll read something that's badly written (or at least mediocre) if the story grabs me. (I suspect this is one the reasons I'm not reallly a fan of poetry.)

On the other hand, the most exciting story in the world isn't going to be interesting if you can't tell it properly. People who can't be bothered properly conveying their story are like that guy at a party who goes to tell a joke and ums and aahs his way through it and then forgets the punchline, only to tell it to you half an hour later, by which time all the humour and impact of the joke's gone, or who turn up for an interview in boxers and an old shirt and then wonder why the didn't make a good impression.

on 2006-02-28 12:30 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] katiefoolery.livejournal.com
For me, there are two aspects to writing. Firstly, there's the "driving idea" that you mention; the story that grips you and that won't let you go. The second aspect is the way that story is told, the "building blocks". In my opinion (and you're free to disagree, honestly), if you don't know how to use those building blocks properly, then you'll never be able to fully build upon the driving force of your story. It's like having an amazing idea for the design of a building that you want to build without having any knowledge of architecture whatsoever.

On the other hand, the most exciting story in the world isn't going to be interesting if you can't tell it properly.

Absolutely. I think this links into what Flit was saying (http://buneater.livejournal.com/85334.html?thread=1165142#t1165142): that writing isn't seen as anything difficult or special because everyone's taught to do it. People who wouldn't dream of becoming a lawyer without getting a degree first will assume that they can write a book because, well, everyone knows how to write, don't they? But writing takes practise. You need to write as often as you can, in order to learn about words and how they go together and which ones work well with each other. The training that writers undergo is self-directed and mostly invisible to non-writers. This means that a lot of people fail to recognise the work we writers do, the effort we put in before we even dream of showing our writing to the outside world.

on 2006-02-27 02:03 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] violetcreme.livejournal.com
Unbelievable.

It's like saying you're a Doctor and your job is preserving life and then going on a murderous spree in your free time when you can relax from all that hipocratic stuff.

Language is not a suit you put on to do a job, as you say, it's *in* you. I have to go and lie down grinding my teeth if I see 'your so cool'. I'm not perfect, sometime I'll have a spelling or grammar fart but it's always unintentinoal - for it to be intentinoal is just sheer stupidity.

on 2006-02-28 12:10 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] katiefoolery.livejournal.com
That's a great simile! I wish I'd thought of it, instead of getting bogged down in all of my tradesmen analogies. It sums up exactly the way I feel about the issue. I've enjoyed the responses that have presented the other point of view to mine, but I haven't been convinced by any of them yet. I honestly can't think of any time (apart from msn) when I wouldn't care about spelling words correctly. It just doesn't make sense not to do that. Why even bother writing if you're not going to get the basics right?

Sometimes it's funny to glance back over something you're writing and see a bizarre mistake. Every now and then, I try (or perhaps my subconscious tries) to write "paid" as "payed". I'm certainly not claiming that I don't make keyboarding errors or typos - I do, but I always fix them as soon as I notice them. It would seem wrong not to do so.

On an off-topic note, I adore the quote in your icon. Good old Jane.

on 2006-02-27 04:57 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] elfie-chan.livejournal.com
*rubs words with an oily cloth* My writing is a bit rusty, but at least I try. I love the image of taking out the letters, one by one, and polishing them off so that they shine like little black pearls.

I can understand the perception of one's blog as a personal place, a private space where one doesn't have to constantly focus on grammar and spelling. While a misplaced apostrophe leaps out at me immediately and won't let me proceed without extracting it, I do realize that not all writers are that way. (Yes, I have edited old LJ entries after noticing that I spelled/punctuated something incorrectly.) That said, writers should use correct spelling and grammar, and they should make an effort to do so in their writing. I can understand scribbling out a rough draft, just to get the thoughts down before they slip away, but all writers should be able to edit their own work. A denial of correct spelling and grammar is unacceptable for a writer (unless you are e.e. cummings, but he was a bit of a different story).

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I agree with you--if one is a writer, one should know and love the tools of one's trade. Words are all that we have, and those words deserve respect. If we didn't love words, why on earth would we write at all?

on 2006-02-28 12:16 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] katiefoolery.livejournal.com
Or if all that polishing is too arduous, you could always dunk them in the little "bath" that came with my jewellery cleaning kit. They'll come out shining billiantly after that.

I'm so glad to discover I'm not the only person who corrects old LJ entries! Every now and then, as I browse over my archives, I'll come across a typo or a keyboarding error and I'll fix it. And now I know I'm not alone in this habit. :)

If we didn't love words, why on earth would we write at all?

That's exactly the way I feel. Even though I started writing simply because it felt like fun, I quickly developed a love of the tools of my trade. I was the "walking dictionary" at school. People asked me how to spell words or to check over things they'd written to find any spelling mistakes. Words have been good to me and I simply want to return the favour.

on 2006-02-27 08:18 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] air-and-angels.livejournal.com
I agree with you - and frankly, I think that if one has been properly educated, and does not have a disorder like dyslexia, then using correct spelling and mostly correct grammar (people who go so far as to call it 'grammer' usually have little idea what it actually entails) should be something that one does automatically, naturally, without having to think about it or put it on. Sometimes one may have to pause to remember the spelling of a weird word, certainly - but one's everyday vocabulary should always be correctly spelled. One should know those words.
The only situation in which I let typos go - and these are typos, not spelling errors (by which I mean errors made because you don't know how to spell the word or have learned a wrong spelling) - is instant messaging, because I am trying to give a response quickly and not leave the other person hanging. This leads to a certain amount of 'hte,' but it's not goddamn 'grammer' and 'writting.'
How does anyone think 'writting' makes the sound of 'writing'? A double t would make the i short as in, well, 'shit.'
Now I'm all worked up *^w^*

on 2006-02-28 12:19 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] katiefoolery.livejournal.com
Instant messaging receives an automatic exemption, because it's impossible to get everything perfect in such a situation. Typos are inevitable in msn, I'm afraid. Yet, as you say, we still make an effort to spell words correctly, even if they end up with the letters not quite in the correct order.

"Writting" is another one of my pet hates, even more so after I discovered it's listed as an interest on LJ. Either there are a lot of specialised lawyers on LJ or I should be weeping in despair over in that corner.

on 2006-03-01 12:34 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] wickedkiwi.livejournal.com
I agree with you. While I see some people's points to the contrary, I think that as a writer you should always present yourself as a writer. In the end, it's your writing that will define you. For me, it's hard to take a writer seriously who doesn't take their writing - all aspects of their writing - seriously.

Great entry. Btw, I found you via Literally Blogging on the b5media network. Saw you were a fellow LiveJournal member and thought I'd stop by. :)

on 2006-03-02 12:22 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] katiefoolery.livejournal.com
Thank-you very much for dropping by. I've just been reading through your journal, too, and I hope you don't mind if I add you to my friends' list. I love to read about how other people write.

The idea of always being "on show" as a writer is important to me. I even think about it when I'm talking. This morning, I said something to a student that involved my saying "it's got" and I mentally cringed at my lapse. I hate saying "it's got" instead of "it has". You never know when someone's listening (or reading).

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Posted by [identity profile] wickedkiwi.livejournal.com - on 2006-03-02 03:48 pm (UTC) - Expand

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Posted by [identity profile] wickedkiwi.livejournal.com - on 2006-03-02 03:54 pm (UTC) - Expand

on 2006-03-01 06:21 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] naelany.livejournal.com
hear, hear!

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