Fanfiction, karma and YOU

[katiefoolery]

The way I see it, the online world of writing operates on a rather basic system of karma.  At its most simplistic level, it looks a little like this:

posting fanfic for others to read = exceptionally good karma
leaving a review = good karma
reading but not reviewing = bad karma

Like I said: simple but karmic.

Before I was sucked into the shiny, shiny world of LiveJournal, I spent a great deal of time at FictionPress.  It was at FP that I first met some amazing people and was also introduced to this most basic rule of online writing: if you want people to read your stories, then you must first read theirs.  And leave a review.  A meaningful review.  Too often, I (along with many others) was the recipient of a review somewhat along these lines:

Great story!  Plz R&R!

In FP.com-speak, this meant:

Hi!  I didn’t read your story but I’m just leaving a token review so that you’ll feel obliged to come and read one of my stories in return!

Suffice to say, I never left a review like that myself, mostly because I’ve always believed in that whole “doing unto others” concept.  Therefore, if I wanted to receive helpful and meaningful reviews, then I had to give some first.  It seemed quite logical and straightforward to me.

When I started reading fanfic, I applied a similar principle to the whole process.  Since any fanfic I’ve ever written is either a) now under a friends lock, b) hidden away on my computer, or, c) hidden away in my indecipherable hand-writing in my notebook, the only way I can acculumate positive karma is by leaving reviews for the fic I read.  I consider it payment, really.  Somebody has gone to all the effort of writing a story and posting it for me to read; how hard it is to thank them for doing so by leaving a reivew?

Answer: not hard at all.  Seriously.  Taking a couple of minutes out of your life to write down a simple review really isn’t that much of a trial.

I just so happened to be reading some fic today and was about to leave a comment when the following part of another person’s comment caught my eye:

its honestly very rare that i get the urge to comment on fanfics i read

And I just thought: how bloody rude.  How inconsiderate to receive enjoyment from reading fics people have worked hard on without even telling them so.  What makes this person so damn great that they can’t take two minutes out of their life to say something as simple as, “Great story - I enjoyed it”?

I have to get over extreme attacks of internet shyness to leave reviews sometimes.  Often, it takes me an age of dithering to write a review because I’m anguishing over my wording or desperately wanting not to come across as an idiot.  But I do it eventually.

But I’d be interested to know what you all think.  Do you review?  Or do you read and move on?  And what motivates you to do either?

Comments

[crazedturkey.livejournal.com]

I personally think people who read and don't review are the lowest form of human life, and thus I always try and leave something even if it's just yeah! I loved it!

Problem is though that I suffer from the same problems as you, being that I find the whole process rather fraught. It's often hard to tell, particularly on LJ where the review will be in a public comment, just how honest you can be, especially if you don;t know the author.

Which of course means that when I read my own reviews, I wonder how many of those people have said 'great story, please keep writing' because they mean it, or because they think it's rude not to say something, but they aren't sure if they can say, "well it was good, but I didn't really like xyz."

And, of course, it's those second kind of comments that are actually useful, because they're the ones with substance that help you grow as a writer.

*sigh*

So really, in the end, it's a complete quandry. And this comment has turned into an essay!

please R&R! hehhehehe

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

Ah yes - it can be a bit double-edged, can't it? Still, that simple "great story" is miles ahead of all the people who read and stayed silent.

The other issue is that a lot of people who give concrit often become the recipient of nasty replies from the author, who has mistaken helpful feedback for a flame. I never leave concrit unless the author asks for it, but I will try and say something solid in my review, beyond the fact that I liked it. Telling the author what I liked would seem to be helpful (or so I hope).

I received some great concrit on the story I posted a FP recently, mostly because I asked a couple of questions at the end of the chapter. Sometimes you just have to emphasise your willingness to receive concrit to overcome people's worry about potentially offending you.

[peachynat3.livejournal.com]

Even though it's not entirely the same, I feel deviantart works in a similar way... So many people leave one word comments or simply even just tell you to visit their page. That's one of the main reasons why I kind of let my deviantart account get ignored, because despite the feedback I'd leave other people, I rarely got any good feedback on mine. Of course, that's not what it's all about, but you can tell when someone leaves a comment just because they want you to visit theirs and really didn't even take your work into consideration.

Oh well. Welcome to the internet :P

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

I agree - I think DA is much the same. I hardly have any stuff on my account 'cause I'm mostly there to watch other people, but it's nice when someone responds to your comment or leaves a thank-you on your profile page. But the amount of people who just ignore your comments (or faves) sometimes frustrates me.

You're right - this is pretty much how things go on the internet, isn't it?

[blackswans.livejournal.com]

I haven't been involved much in the fanfic world (you introduced me to it, really, and remain my sole form of exposure to it), but I liked your thoughts about reviewing. I hope heaps of people read this and gain the courage (or the boot in the backside) to be more open with their thoughts!

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

Me too! Every time I get shy and think about just wandering off, I think of how much I enjoy receiving comments on my LJ or the occasional review from FP.com and I sit right down and write that review.

[pitkat.livejournal.com]

I follow a similar karma philosophy. Yet, I tend to fall down that nasty hole of getting frustrated with some authors I continuous offer advise or meaningful kudos to and never get their time back, let alone a courteous response from the left review.

I think reviewing is one way of getting your penname out. If you never review, then the people reading won't know that you're there and won't know who you are. I think you can tell a lot about a person based on the types of reviews they leave. If someone leaves a bunch of random half sentences with "thk ths Gr8!" then it's likely this person is under the age of 25 and likely is still sorting out their own writing style in age-appropriate stories (heh). If the person leaves notes that nitpick on the littlest stuff (unless the grammar is really that bad) and gets all crazy about your blue hair phenomenon and how that doesn't fit with the original story and that you're not a true fan person because of it, then it's likely that person is not someone I'd review for their stories because it's not going to be taken seriously. If anyone leaves non concrit hate mail for all to see and has the balls to post anonymously, then their stories, when they finally manage to log in are not even worth my time.

I don't know. I've stopped reviewing stories because of the lack of the author's courtesy, though. It just stings a little in my heart to take time out to read and think critically over someone else's work and not have the same done for me.

That's a little selfish, I know, but still.... I'm getting over the idea that I don't write it for the reviews - it just makes me heart all warm and fuzzy when I happy to get one. Like today! The person was very thought about it, too. Now, I'll have to go read some of his/her stuff. :)

Anyway, I'm off my horse. Those are my thoughts.

[pitkat.livejournal.com]

Owi, if I could learn to type after a nap.....
Sorry. I think you can decipher it. :)

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

It's OK - it was perfectly easy to understand. :D

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

Ah, that's another thing I almost mentioned - review replies. It's such a murky area. I tried to respond to all of my reviews at FP.com, although it was mostly by return-reviewing until the site's software was updated. One thing I love about FF.net is that handy little review reply link. It's really not difficult to click on it and thank someone for their review. I know I'm even more keen to respond to upcoming chapters if the author is generous enough to respond to my review. Then again, if someone has a lot of reviews, then it would take them far too long to respond, so I can understand that.

[pitkat.livejournal.com]

Yeah, a ton of reviews is tough to respond to all at once. I could understand that. I had several experiences on FFnet though; where I reviewed often and with some insight and never got a response until I openly criticized something (nicely - just explained that I didn't understand). Then I got a reply and it wasn't even acknowledging the review other than to defend her thought. I think my irritation spurned from that and I stopped reviewing her work. Still read it, though.

I'm probably coming off rather pompous. I don't feel an obligation to read someone's work to get reviews of my own. I just think there should be some etiquette between the reader and their audience.

[pitkat.livejournal.com]

*The writer and their audience...

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

Nah, you don't sound pompous. I feel pretty much the same way, really. I still review, but if I ever get a response then that author has endeared themselves to me forever! It's pretty much why I respond to every comment on my LJ, simply because I appreciate people taking the time to write a response. They didn't have to do that and I like to thank people by responding to what they say. It helps that people usually have something interesting to say, too. :D

[murfgirl.livejournal.com]

I always review. In fact..I'm a review whore...only in the way that I must comment on almost every story I read. I know what it's like to want to hear comments on your fanfiction, so I try to please everyone. :D But yeah, I don't really like reviews that are like. "Great story. Read mine now." They don't really say much, haha. And also, many writers are new to fanfiction and don't know that you're not supposed to demand that people review. I actually had someone hounding my myspace demanding that I review his story. Quite annoying. But I say that if you want to review...review.

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

Exactly! It doesn't take much time to write a quick review and you know you've most likely given someone a nice warm feeling when they read it.

I almost feel sorry for those people who beg for reviews, because they're more or less guaranteeing they won't get any at all.

[tangledtale.livejournal.com]

Okay, I guess I'll be the one to explain a few reasons why I'm one of those not particularly prolific commenters *don't shoot!* and suffer the wrath of all those who have come before me.

It really depends largely on the cicumstances as much as the quality of the fic/how much I liked it. Like when I read a fic that's a year old, which happened quite a bit during the start of my foray into the Harry Potter fandom, I didn't leave any comments to the fics I read because 1. my feedback is generally nice, unobjectionable and trite and 2. I didn't want to bother the author with feedback that didn't hold any real critical value for something that they'd probably completely forgotten about. And when I read something that's received heaps of comments before I'd even got there, I hesitate to say something like 'I really liked this' because it's repeating what's already been said so many times already, and that feels a bit extraneous. This is especially the case when I see that writers don't respond to any of the single line feedback comments because I get worried that they're really tired/bored of all this homogenous praise without any really constructive/insightful/detailed comment on why the writing is so OMG gr8! When it comes to pieces of writing that hasn't received much feedback, I leave some and I try to make it a detailed one to make it sound more encouraging. And when it comes to work by people on the friendslist who are in the same fandom, I usually try to leave somewhat well thought out comments with a tiny bit of positive analysis on what worked for me. So perhaps I've trapped myself into a habit of only leaving huge chuncks of complicated feedback and any other kind of appreciation I leave just feels so unnecessary and unhelpful that I get too self-concious to carry it through? I always comment on art though, which is a bit weird.

[crazedturkey.livejournal.com]

actually, sounds like you might be my kind of commentator. ;)

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

Ah yes - I quite understand all of your points. Especially when a story is rather popular and might have hundreds of reviews already. It can seem a bit pointless to just add another spoonful of praise, can't it?

I like the sound of your feedback - helpful and encouraging all at once. It's nice that you seem particularly keen on giving reviews to people who might not have received many, though. All in all, I think I like the way you review. :)

[bethamphetam1ne.livejournal.com]

I tend to review because I know how jolly it is to get reviews and how obsessively one checks the various places on the intarwebz hoping for some feedback.

I really only read PG fanfic these days though occasionally other stuff catches my eye. And if someone reviewed my fanfic, I probably wouldn't go and read one of theirs if it wasn't in one of my fandoms.

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

That's why I like to review, too - because I know what a buzz I get when I receive feedback, so it's nice to provide that buzz for somebody else.

It does make it difficult if you're not into any of the fandoms of a reviewer, though.

[morbane.livejournal.com]

Hm. I'm one of those neurotic reviewers - reviewing is of paramount importance, but I feel so guilty if I read and don't review that I often avoid reading. And if I do say something, I like it to be at least a couple of sentences.

Sometimes if someone reviews me, I'll go check them out, then put them on my watch list just so that I know when they've written something else I might have something useful to say about. ^^;

I find if I don't know much about the fandom, and have said so in my review, the author has often contacted me later to explain it to me, and seemed quite pleased at the opportunity.

I don't have a lot of problems with people not returning my reviews, partly because I believe it works by a more mysterious tit-for-tat system. If you review, you get reviews - it just works like that. Often if you write a particularly thoughtful review, someone else will read the reviews and be as impressed by you as they are impressed by the piece you were reviewing.

Getting a "great plz r&r" review is such a terrible disappointment to read when you're checking your own reviews. It really is low. It's really good brownie points to then give them a useful review. Not that they take the hint that you are in fact setting them an example.

I don't know why I'm putting all this in present tense. It's been a while since most of this was applicable to me. My poor profile has languished so.

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

I often find new authors through reading the reviews they leave for other people, so there's another bit a good karma being left behind when you review. :D

I like to try and leave reviews of a reasonable length, too. Sometimes I just can't and that always frustrates me.

[blindmouse.livejournal.com]

I have a certain amount of review guilt. A lot of the time it simply doesn't occur to me to leave a comment, unless there's something in particular I want to say - "I've never thought of this character that way before", or "I loved the pumpkin scene". I'm working on remembering to leave something for everything I read and like, though, simply because I know for myself that even little comments like "hey, this was fun" make me smile.

It occurred to me the other day, though, that in particular I almost never leave reviews for smut, simply because I'm embarrassed to say to somebody, "Wow, hot." And since my world would be darker without all of the wonderful smutwriters out there, I have guilt. I should be encouraging these writers, and I'm not.

I never leave reviews for fics I didn't particularly enjoy. Probably because I only entered the fandom writing sphere recently, I tend to think of helpful criticism as something which should happen before you put your stories out there in "published" form.

I also never review non-LJ fics. I get shy and feel that I need to have something intelligent and worthwhile to say, if I'm actually going to click that review button on Skyehawke or something. Er. Possibly should get over that.

[morbane.livejournal.com]

Huh.

Right then while you were writing THAT, I was being guilted into writing a review for a poem... about a pumpkin.

Weird.

[blindmouse.livejournal.com]

Mwaha. You know I was looking over your shoulder...

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

Now I want to write a poem about a pumpkin.

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

Oh, I hear you about the smutfic reviews. They're the ones I used to get shy about mostly, but I think I'm getting a bit better.

Yes, you must definitely start reviewing off LJ! It really does get easier once you start and think of the good cheer you'll be bringing to those authors when they see they have a new review. :)

[morbane.livejournal.com]

Oh, another use for reviews. You might wonder what's good out there then have a look at your review history and think, "Well, I said I liked that when I read it. I can't remember - but maybe I reallyd id like it. Maybe the author has come up with something new."

[rigel-7.livejournal.com]

I think we had this conversation :P

I'm getting better at leaving comments to fic that I read, in fact one of my new years resolutions is to feedback on all those bookmarked fics that I've been going through - Even if it's just a little "I enjoyed this" comment.

When I do comment though, I like to leave something substantial and tell the author exactly why it was that made it so enjoyable - hence my leetle formula :P

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

I do believe we may have had this conversation once or twice. Usually while I'm dithering about leaving a review. :P

The formula is very helpful indeed. Sometimes if I'm particularly stuck on a review, I write down a couple of keywords to remind myself of what I liked about it and that seems to help me flesh out a review.

[vicky-v.livejournal.com]

But I’d be interested to know what you all think. Do you review?

I try to. As you said, it's sort of a karma thing. If I drop my name in the right places then perhaps I'll get a bit of feedback myself. I am a feedback junkie, especially with reviews that will perhaps point out where I may be going wrong. That sort of feedback seems pretty rare in places like ff.net but it has happened.

Or do you read and move on?

If it's something that I find myself not enjoying, I wil be hitting that back button and leaving. That's about the closest that it comes with me most of the time.

Or, if it happens to be a multi-part. If it's a fairly long one then I'm probably not going to finish it in one day (lazy, that's the only excuse). In those cases I will drop in a review after completing it, unless there's something in there along the way that really catches my eye.

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

It is a shame that people are wary of leaving concrit on fanfic. I know I am, mostly because you hear too many stories of concrit being taken as a flame, with a resulting attack on the writer of the review. I'm always delighted to discover a fanficcer who actively requests concrit, because I'm more than happy to give it if I know it's going to be well-received.

I do the same with chaptered fics - usually, I wait until I reach the end to leave a long-ish review, unless something seems to warrant a response along the way.

[vicky-v.livejournal.com]

I know I am, mostly because you hear too many stories of concrit being taken as a flame, with a resulting attack on the writer of the review.

Agreed. When leaving a bit of concrit, I try to emphasize the good points as much as I can to try and cushion things a little. Where it's not that possible I go for anonymous reviewing, because I'm just that much of a wuss.

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I never thought of doing anonymous concrit! Heh - I might end up doing that in the future.

The good old kiss-kick-kiss is definitely the best way to go about concrit. I'm always so paranoid about being taken the wrong way that I seem to emphasies the good bits out of all proportion, just to ensure that I don't come across as a big meanie.

[etherealdeva.livejournal.com]

I have a fanfic.net account, but I don't write. It's only for keeping track of what I'm reading and authors I like and so that I can leave signed reviews.
Although I'm not a very good reviewer. I never know what to say so my reviews tend to end up being along the lines of "I enjoyed this. I liked the way you...."
I'm definitely in the ranks of feeling shy when I review. With a few of the authors I read all the time I tend to send them a review instead of leaving it in public. With some of the authors who know I feel like I have nothing constructive to say I tend to just leave a "I've read and enjoyed" just so they know I'm still following.

As a side-note - that's why I hadly ever leave comments in LorF. I always feel as though I have nothing useful to say.

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

Oh, Eth, we love comments in LorF! Even if it's mad fangirling or a "just so you know I'm reading" comment, it'd be willingly received. It's just nice to know that someone is reading.

I think your style of review is quite a good one, really. At least, it's the type I usually leave. Telling a writer what you liked is always helpful and encouraging. :)

[alankria.livejournal.com]

I read very little fanfic these days, but I try to review when I do. But because I generally view fanfic as authors having a laugh (rather than some writings on FP, where authors post in the hope of getting some good CC) I generally just say "That was really great/funny/I snorted juice out my nose! Looking forward to an update!" I don't leave those on every chapter, but try to every now and then to let the author know I'm still loving the work. I agree with you - it's good to let the author know their work is appreciated, and it seems a little rude to never mention that appreciation. Even one review will do the trick.

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

There's definitely a difference between the reviews I used to give on FP.com and the ones I give fanfic. And yes - with chaptered fics, I usually wait until I reach the end or the most recent chapter to leave a review. It's different if I'm following a fic that's still being updated, of course.

Writers need love and a review is such an easy way of giving it! :D

[naelany.livejournal.com]

I don't read much fanfic, or any stories, really. I read yours, and most of those of my friends, but when I read, I write something. Even if all I can come up with is a "liked it, thanks for sharing", or something along those lines.

[katiefoolery.livejournal.com]

And that's all it takes! It's just nice to let the writer know you're reading.

[naelany.livejournal.com]

that's what I figure, too ^_~